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Karen Rader

Katherine does a nice job of responding to many of the points raised – so I’ll just chime in on one point. I think it’s worth pondering further what criteria would make our argument persuasive – and for whom.

We were (and are -- in our on-going scholarly projects alluded to in the article) trying to persuade scientists that history of science and popular culture has some relevance for their work in a way that rejects – rather than reinforces – an outmoded deficit model of scientific communication. Thus rather than focusing on the many well-grounded history of science studies that Michael Robinson mentions in which various publics have provided various scientists with information/data.etc. that enrich their already-existing laboratory practices, we chose to focus on many equally well-grounded history of science studies that challenge and complicate our understanding of the very nature of relationships between scientists and their publics --and in the process, broaden our understanding of what might be counted as 'scientific work' in the first place. As Katherine notes, w e took this road with the Focus piece not unwittingly but deliberately, in order to confront the issue of the politics of knowledge and (in her words) “ the ways in which those politics stunt or facilitate democratic participation.” We are not suggesting that historians hold all the answers to this puzzle, but simply that a genuine understanding of how scientific knowledge travels ‘upstream’ or ‘downstream’ can not be achieved without also understanding how the streams got made, and without also asking the questions: who gets to fish in them, who doesn’t -- and why?

Interestingly, this strategy has gotten us reprimanded both for displaying disciplinary arrogance and “not quite managing to sell” our argument. Our argument suggests that the history and science and popular culture reveals that neither scientists nor their various publics can afford to preserve a ‘status quo’ understanding of their roles in scientific culture – because these roles have changed, and are continuing to change, greatly over time. Those who wish to continue to define those roles narrowly – e.g. if public participation impacts the content of existing scientific knowledge, then it’s worth paying attention to -- will find this argument unpersuasive, and will (rightly) seek out other sources expertise (e.g. science communication scholarship). At the same time, those who wish to interrogate relations between scientists and their publics even more deeply will be frustrated that the history we recount provides inspiration – but not a roadmap -- for such a project. Thus, to use Alexis Turner’s phrase -- “where people understand -- and more importantly, misunderstand science” is not so unlike where people understand – and more importantly, misunderstand history: in both enterprises, recognizing how 'boundary work' frames discussions is important.

alexis

As usual, far more tactful than I am prone to be, but I am glad to see that you were more direct in your statement this time (starting with, appropriately enough, "Well, the most straightforward answer..."). This time you have teeth.

I think that making even more explicit how science is not just "science," but is to most people tied to humanitarian and philosophical problems, is your strongest point here. Scientists may not *want* people to see science this way, but it doesn't change the fact that they *do* see it this way (or, for that matter, that many scientists themselves do, too). Your argument of course hinges very much on this difference in understanding, so I don't think you should feel reluctant to beat people around the head with it just a bit.

Katherine Pandora

Thanks for the comments, Alexis. I take your point -- in the end it is probably partly a matter of style (on the spectrum of academic gladiator moves I tend toward favoring "suggesting" over "insisting"). But an additional factor when we were approaching this is the fact that the evolution wars have tended to make anyone involved in discussions regarding science and the public feel that *any* kind of commentary entails shouting, with a subsequent impulse to shut out any further conversation. The threshold for getting heard these days has been ratcheted up in consequence, in my view. But if I ever get in a tight spot, I'd sure want you on my side when it comes time for fisticuffs :-)

Michael Robinson

Katherine and Karen: I enjoyed reading this. I gathered from your article that you were speaking to many audiences, but I now see that you were reaching out to scientists in particular. With this in mind, I can see why you wanted to give greater attention to earlier academic work not well known outside of the STS community (i.e. Cooter and Pumfrey, Victorian science).

I think I probably fit into the category of readers that Karen mentions as being frustrated that the article does not offer a clearer "road map" for better communication between scientists and the public. In particular, I wanted more examples of humanistic approaches to science that you think have the power to alter scientific discourse within the academy.

As you suggest, this is difficult because we cannot presume which aspects of humanistic discourse might catch on with scientists and inform their work. Indeed, it becomes clear from Karen's response that your article was meant to start a conversation rather than offer a prescription.

In this, I think your article has clearly succeeded and I hope we can keep the conversation going. Will either of you be attending HSS in November? Hope to see you there.

Michael

Katherine Pandora

thanks for the follow-up, Michael! Glad to hear that you think this is a helpful start. I won't be HSSing this year since I have a conference almost right on top of it and my schedule doesn't allow for long schleps away from homebase. But let's stay in touch! I'll be doing related stuff on the blog and I've also got a little webproject on "Little Scientists in Victorian Times" on children and science circa 1859 coming up for the Darwin hoopla on our campus in early 2009. Its aimed at a general audience (and relates to activities that the childrens' Discovery Room at our local Natural History Museum will be planning) but I'm hoping some scientists will find it thought-provoking as well about popular experiences outside of school and official expert culture...I'll be interested to hear what you think and any feedback when we get it drafted.

Karen Rader

Michael, I am going to HSS in November -- and would like to talk more with you (and anyone else) with continued interest in these issues...
-- Karen

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